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Thread: Not 24p when captured in Vegas

  1. #1
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    Default Not 24p when captured in Vegas

    Hey... I just shot some of my first footage with the hv20, and I captured the footage using Vegas 8.... I shot all of it in 24p, but when i capture it in Vegas, the footage says 29.97 when i click on it's properties.

    Any ideas??

  2. #2
    Travelling MAL 1's Avatar
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    Lunchbox once said:
    "The 24fps video is then wrapped within a 1080i stream with additional frames being added (pulldown) to form a 30 frames per second video so you can watch it at home on TV (TV standard is 30fps)."

    Search the forums for PULLDOWN removal.

  3. #3
    Administrator Lunchbox's Avatar
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    woow I was quoted by 1. such an honor =)

    Talusman, welcome to the forum. Please read the FAQ as they are beneficial to new members and new HV owners.

    http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3058

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    Thanks Lunchbox.

    Wow, i had no idea i had to go through all of that pulldown stuff, sigh. Well, if i do the pulldown removal does that actually resample the footage? Would that be like a whole extra compression? (and thus have more quality loss)

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    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    No, because the freeware pulldown removal saves in a lossless codec. Other ways might resort to quality loss because of the codec they use, yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
    No, because the freeware pulldown removal saves in a lossless codec. Other ways might resort to quality loss because of the codec they use, yes.
    Thanks Eugenia.... btw, ive been reading a bunch of ur other posts, and damn, u know a boatload about video editing!!

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    Wow, i cant believe how much larger these files get - youve gotta be kiddin me!! For example, i converted an m2t file that was only 0.75GBs and after removing the pulldown its 3.75GBs!! (and that was using the YUY2, not the full RGB) - I cant see myself being able to edit 40 - 50 video files that are around 4GBs in size... and ive got a sweet system...

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    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    All lossless or near lossless codecs create big files. If you don't do that, you lose quality during the conversion. The only way to go around the problem is not to convert, but to let the application treat the video as already pulldown-removed (that is, remove pulldown on the fly in the timeline). The only application in the world that can do that is After Effects.

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    Ok, what about this idea? What if I did all my editing in Vegas with the m2t files (with a framerate of 29.97 since they dont capture correctly) and then when I'm done editing everything, I right click on the files in the Project Media tab (in Vegas) and "replace" the m2t files with the huge converted AVIs (with a framerate of 23.976)? Would that work??

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    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    No, because after pulldown removal the final size is not the same, so you will end up with small holes in the timeline. What you need to do is to do the pulldown removal as described in the tutorial but instead of using Lagarith you need to use Huffyuv, and then use the proxy files tutorial to create proxy files for the 23.976 Huffyuv .avi files.
    http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/1...th-sony-vegas/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talusman View Post
    Ok, what about this idea? What if I did all my editing in Vegas with the m2t files (with a framerate of 29.97 since they dont capture correctly)
    They DO capture correctly. All output from the HV is 60i unless and until you process it as something else. You need to spend some time reading the FAQs and Stickies in here and get some more knowledge on what you're doing, especially if 24p is what you want to end up with. There's a significant workflow required for it.
    To all Newbies: Have you read this FAQ before posting? Or watched this short video?
    If you haven't, then don't complain when I close or move your thread.


    The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing. --Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by CycleWriter View Post
    They DO capture correctly. All output from the HV is 60i unless and until you process it as something else. You need to spend some time reading the FAQs and Stickies in here and get some more knowledge on what you're doing, especially if 24p is what you want to end up with. There's a significant workflow required for it.
    Ok, let me rephrase... "Since it doesnt capture the same frame rate as the actual recording"

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    Now, Ive read that the pulldown removal isnt necessary if just outputting to DVD - is that still the case if I use a 23.976 timeline in vegas and output it as 23.976 for DVD Architect?

    And also, if pulldown removal isnt necessary if its outputted to DVD and played on a TV - what are the outputs that will suffer? Film? Streaming Video? Or both??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
    No, because after pulldown removal the final size is not the same, so you will end up with small holes in the timeline. What you need to do is to do the pulldown removal as described in the tutorial but instead of using Lagarith you need to use Huffyuv, and then use the proxy files tutorial to create proxy files for the 23.976 Huffyuv .avi files.
    http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/1...th-sony-vegas/
    So, youre sayin if i do the pulldown removal twice - once with high quality (and thus large files) and a second time with poor quality (small files), I can do the "replacement" thing in vegas after im done editing?

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    >Now, Ive read that the pulldown removal isnt necessary if just outputting to DVD - is that still the case if I use a 23.976 timeline in vegas and output it as 23.976 for DVD Architect?

    No. If you only do DVD, then you do NOT need to remove pulldown. You edit as 60i, you export your mpeg files for DVD as 60i. Everything will have to be 60i. When you put the DVD to the DVD player, the DVD player or the TV will remove pulldown automatically for you. AGAIN: you edit/export as 60i if you don't remove pulldown. Nothing changes from the default 60i.

    >And also, if pulldown removal isnt necessary if its outputted to DVD and played on a TV - what are the outputs that will suffer? Film? Streaming Video? Or both??


    Yes, film print, web, PC viewing will suffer. Only DVD/TV will benefit.

    >So, youre sayin if i do the pulldown removal twice - once with high quality (and thus large files) and a second time with poor quality (small files), I can do the "replacement" thing in vegas after im done editing?

    No, that's not what I said. You don't do the pulldown removal twice. You only do it once. But then you take these created .avi files that the pulldown removal procedure created, and you export them in a faster format as 23.976 too using the SUPER utility. So basically you get this:

    1. m2t, HDV mpeg2 file out of the camera. 60i
    2. avi, Huffyuv file after the pulldown removal. 23.976 fps
    3. mpg, small mpeg2 file after proccesing #2 via the SUPER utility. 23.976 fps

    Then, you edit the mpg files with vegas, and when you are done, you switch the mpg with the avi as shown in the tutorial. And while all your editing is done in the smaller faster mpg version, your final render will use the high quality AVI.

    But as I said, if you only care about DVDs, don't bother with pulldown removal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
    1. m2t, HDV mpeg2 file out of the camera. 60i
    2. avi, Huffyuv file after the pulldown removal. 23.976 fps
    3. mpg, small mpeg2 file after proccesing #2 via the SUPER utility. 23.976 fps
    Ok, it looks like im gonna go that route. Thanks for your expert help Eugenia - I truly appreciate it!

    One last question (probably, lol)... Just curious - If I just went ahead and didnt do any pulldown removal, but rendered my finished videos with a frame rate of 29.97, would that work properly for PC/internet streaming video?
    Last edited by Talusman; 2008 September 29th at 22:13.

  17. #17
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    Does 60i footage (29.97 frame rate) have to have its pulldown removed to be properly viewed as streamed video on the internet?

    If not, what about 60i footage from an HV20 that was recorded in 24p, but captured as 60i 29.97?

  18. #18
    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    For web video, yes, you need to remove pulldown if you want the best quality. But you don't really have to.

  19. #19
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    What's New in Version 9.0 -

    *Updated New Project and Make Movie Wizards.

    *Improved native HDV .m2t playback performance and improved memory
    handling for HDV longform projects. (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum only)

    *Sony HDV true progressive 24p support. (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum only)

    *Import from Memory Recording Unit. (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum only)

    *Import from AVCHD camcorder. (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum only)

    *Support for editing files recorded with Sony AVCHD camcorders. (Vegas Movie
    Studio Platinum only)

    *Support for Sony Cinescore™ Studio music-generation plug-in.

    *Single-monitor full-screen video preview.

    *Burn timeline to Blu-ray Disc™. (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum only)

    *Upload to YouTube.

    *Added support for reading 1920x1080 AVCHD video. (Vegas Movie Studio
    Platinum only)

    *Smart rendering support for MPEG-2 video.

    *Support for opening MJPEG-encoded AVI files (such as video recorded with a
    digital still camera).

    *Support for opening and rendering FLAC files.

    *Support for LPEC files imported from Digital Voice Editor software.

    *High-quality H.264 AVC/AAC import and export (including HD support).
    Includes templates for Sony WALKMAN and Apple iPod.






    does this mean no more pull-down hassle?
    this is for vegas movie studio platinum 9 btw.
    HV20- Need to get- 1. poor man's steadycam 2. replacement battery 3. JAG35 adapter 4. Mic

  20. #20
    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    No, it doesn't do it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
    No, it doesn't do it.
    Do you know for sure? Sony never made 720p HDV cams, therefore when they say "Sony HDV 24p" I think about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#.22P.22_modes, which is pretty much the same as Canon's PF24 mode.

  22. #22
    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    I tried it. It doesn't work. Neither it removes pulldown when you set the frame rate to 24p, or when you right click the footage to set any such value to its properties, or on the status bar where you read how vegas understands these files. Maybe the Sony files do have flags, and so they support it. But for Canon PF24 files, it does NOT work. Vegas thinks these files as 60i.

  23. #23
    Moderator Eugenia Loli-Queru's Avatar
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    I asked Sony, and that feature is indeed ONLY for the Sony PF24 HDV cameras. You see, Sony did include flags in these streams, while Canon didn't. And so they now support only Sony cameras for PF24.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
    I asked Sony, and that feature is indeed ONLY for the Sony PF24 HDV cameras. You see, Sony did include flags in these streams, while Canon didn't. And so they now support only Sony cameras for PF24.
    Interesting. I thought that there are no flags in native interlaced stream, only in progressive. Did they give you more detail on the flags or just said that they do not support PF24 from Canon?

    Umm, Sony does not use "PF" notation, it uses "P". I guess I need to update the wiki article then.

  25. #25
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    They only told me that Canon didn't include flags while Sony did, and so it was easier for them to just do it only for Sony cameras.

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