The Panny GH1 **wow**

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Stu Maschwitz replied to my email:

[...] the GH1 shoots true 24 and then adds 3:2 pulldown. You'll be able to extract clean 24p, but it's an extra step that could have been avoided, and your files will be bigger with the redundant frames. [...]

So basically, we will have to compress 60 fps on that measly 17 mbps bitrate, and we will have to go through the same ordeal we have to go with the HV20/30. No, thanks.

He also mentioned though that the camera has film modes regarding gamma curves, so this might (or might not) fix the contrast problems.

[Rumpelgeist]

Junk. Why Panasonic is doing this after having true 24p on the SD9 and SD100/HS100 is beyond my comprehension. I hope the 300 is not screwed the same way.

[MistahTibbs]

Sounds like the GH1 is running the same bitrate as the HMC150 but with a full 1920x1080 area being used and not some "stitched-together" pixel-shifting.

HMC150 also crams 60p into 17mbps. I'd prefer something different re: data rate but I'm liking this cam more and more.

I'd like to see how much manual control is available. I was excited about the HF S100...now? the GH1 has turned my head.....yeah, I know. I'm a guy. Shiny things distract me.

MT

[-Rogue5-]

Stu Maschwitz replied to my email:



So basically, we will have to compress 60 fps on that measly 17 mbps bitrate, and we will have to go through the same ordeal we have to go with the HV20/30. No, thanks.

He also mentioned though that the camera has film modes regarding gamma curves, so this might (or might not) fix the contrast problems.

Is he at PMA? (how would he know?) Also do we know for sure that it's 17mbits?

Honestly, as much as pulldown removal is a pain in the ass, if the camera offered properly scaled 1080p (not like the pixel removed D90/5DmkII) and awesome low-light performance, I could live with the extra step in the workflow...

-Rogue5-

[MistahTibbs]

It looks like the mic input is an either/or proposition with the alternate being "remote"

Seeing as how there's no powered zoom what else could the "remote" be for, or should I be thinking still capabilities in relation to that input?

MT

[booggerg]

Is he at PMA? (how would he know?) Also do we know for sure that it's 17mbits?

Honestly, as much as pulldown removal is a pain in the ass, if the camera offered properly scaled 1080p (not like the pixel removed D90/5DmkII) and awesome low-light performance, I could live with the extra step in the workflow...

-Rogue5-

I doubt the camera can do full sensor dumps for videos.. That would be amazing. I don't think we're there yet at this price range and for a 4/3 sized sensor.

[Ian-T]

I still don't know what the fuss is about 17Mbps AVCHD. It should be on par or better than the HDV we are accustomed to. It's been just over a few months tht we've seen 24Mbps come out. This cams videoshould look better than the D90. Sure the Mark ll is 38Mbps...but like -Rogue5- mentions if they are not skipping pixels like they are with the D90/Mark ll then the image should be even nicer.

So there's an exta step in removing pulldown....how different is it from what the rest of us here has been dealing with all along? Even the upcoming HF S10/100 has pulldown. The only other option in our price range is the upcoming HV40 with native 24p. But if the picture on this cam compares well with my HV20...then it will have a new companion come summer (maybe sooner) time. I can and have already been living with pulldown.....no stress. I'm just hoping the picture pans out like I think it will.

I doubt the camera can do full sensor dumps for videos.. That would be amazing. I don't think we're there yet at this price range and for a 4/3 sized sensor.

Yeah but folks were also saying that there is no way to shoot for long period of times with using "Live View"..(because it's such a new tech) but look....Panasonic solved that already.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Is he at PMA? (how would he know?) Also do we know for sure that it's 17mbits?

I don't know if he's at PMA, but he's usually into things. Look him up. As for the 17 mbps, yes, we know that, it's in the specs sheet.

[booggerg]

Yeah but folks were also saying that there is no way to shoot for long period of times with using "Live View"..(because it's such a new tech) but look....Panasonic solved that already.

Whether or not a large sensor can be used to shoot video was a small incremental jump in technology because we already had sensors that could record continuously for an unlimited amount of time.

But to pull 12.1MP worth of data at 30 times a second is simply astounding, and would be a huge jump in technology. I would expect to see these things on high-end sports cams first before seeing it on this camera.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I still don't know what the fuss is about 17Mbps AVCHD. It should be on par or better than the HDV we are accustomed to. It's been just over a few months tht we've seen 24Mbps come out. This cams videoshould look better than the D90.

It better look better than the crappy D90's video. Thing is, 17 mbps is not as good as you think it is. Look up the 17 mbps cameras on that german site I pulled the screenshot comparisons last night, compared to 24 mbps cameras. Plus, the point is not just to be "the same or a bit better" than the HV20. The point is to shell money to get something indeed better. This just ain't it. Except the large sensor, I don't see much to go for it.

So there's an exta step in removing pulldown....how different is it from what the rest of us here has been dealing with all along? Even the upcoming HF S10/100 has pulldown.

But this is the point. If we are going to upgrade, we have to move over these archaic and artificial pulldown mess. Why go through the same hell?

Personally, I just want a $2000 hybrid consumer-prosumer camera. Something that looks like the JVC HD7's body, but with full advanced shoe (like the hv20), full manual control (exposure, ND, shutter, aperture, gain), true 24p, true 30p, and 60i (for NTSC), full 24mbps AVCHD (like the HF-S10/S100) but with advanced h.264 encoder features enabled, no more than ~4 megapixel sensor (for better low light support), 1/2" sensor, 8x to 10x zoom (I realize that the camera would be a bit longer and heavier than the HV20 to accommodate the bigger sensor/zoom ratio), zebra support, a decent viewfinder, good image stabilization (better than the HF-S10's terrible image stabilization), cinemode in the color settings, focus ring, 3" LCD with no overscan and ability to rotate contents (for 35mm adapter usage), metallic filter thread at 52mm (stronger than the plastic ones), and all the rest of the features that the HV20 already has. I am not asking for XLRs, I am not asking for extra buttons, I am not asking big expensive lenses, I am not asking multiple rings, I am not asking for advanced audio features/buttons, I am not asking for exotic software options as found on the prosumer cameras that leave me bewildered each time I read about them.

In other words, I just want something that is in the realm of "very high end consumer", or "very low end prosumer" -- geared for amateur or poor artists & filmmakers.

There is absolutely nothing in that $2000 range like this. I look at the new consumer cameras at CES, they are a dud. I look at these digicams, they mess up the other half part of things. I have lost my hope. The only hope I have right now is to wait for April's NAB and see if Canon will release such a camera (or something that resembles it) as part of their upcoming brand new prosumer line up (it's coming). If nothing like this gets released again this year, I might give up videography altogether. I am a perfectionist and I want my tools to work the way I need them to function. I just had enough of this sh*t alright.

[Rumpelgeist]

Personally, I just want a $2000 hybrid consumer-prosumer camera. <features skipped>

No, this is what I want I have been bitching about it for at least a year. Canon, you had enough time, bring it on!

I am a perfectionist and I want my tools to work the way I need them to function. I just had enough of this sh*t alright.

Well, looking at this from another side, you are not a pooper or a college student (which often is the same thing), you are a professional with good salary, your husband likewise. The HMC150 is only $1K more expensive than your target price, seriously, unless you are fighting for the world to be a better place for all of us, you can at least help yourself. Or 1/3-inch chips with pixelshift is not perfect enough? Then the next stop is EX1, which is like $6K, can be expensive even for wealthy software programmers.

[Ian-T]

Fair enough Eugenia. I guess I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of the current consumer/prosumer cams we see coming out. While each of them are nice and can make great pictures no matter which one we buy we will need some sort of 35mm adapter on them. You can spend a few hundred for a nice DIY DOF adapter to over $1,000+ for a higher end version. Once we slap on that adpter to our footage the image is degraded....too soft to match up with the other naked footage we would shoot with the same cam.

To make things worse the usual DOF we see with these adapters look no where like what we see in the movies. The DOF 90% of the time is way too shallow. My thig is if I am going to spend that type of money to get that type of feature only to keep going backwards with my image quality....then a cam like the new Panasonic could be a godsend. The data ratre is not terrible...and you get good clean bokeh along with sharp images all for about the same or even less than a consumer cam with a brand spanking new DOF adapter.

I want to go forward in technology just like you....but these manufacturers will not give us exactly what we want especially in this price range. They have proved it with these new video capable DSLRs. If anything, like someone has already mentioned, you'll get those features either in a much more expensive pro-sumer cam...or many iterations from now in their current cams (and that could take years).

Also....60p....with decent Bokeh....who else has this? Wow...I consider that an upgrade from what I currently have.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

No, this is what I want I have been bitching about it for at least a year. Canon, you had enough time, bring it on!

There is definitely a market for us, tinkerers and amateurs artists-wannabes. Amateurs, who are serious enough though, who want to have the BASIC functionality of the pro cameras present, without the rest of the fluff. Basically, think of it like the Powershot G10 digicam. Not a DSLR, and not a plain point and shoot exactly either. Something that sits in the middle of the food chain, but powerful enough, and at the right price comparatively. This is what I am after: the equivalent of the Powershot G10, but for camcorders. The HF-S10 or HS300 are just not that. They are one-two steps lower.

you are a professional with good salary, your husband likewise.

I haven't worked professionally for a long time, because of my health. I am not on benefits either because my health problem started to happen when I was not allowed to work yet. Only my husband works. Given that there is no cure for my stomach syndrome, I don't see me going back to work any time soon either. See? I don't have everything in life as some people might think...

The HMC150 is only $1K more expensive than your target price, seriously, unless you are fighting for the world to be a better place for all of us, you can at least help yourself. Or 1/3-inch chips with pixelshift is not perfect enough? .

Nope, they are not. If there was an HMC-152 with 24 mbps recording, AND 1/2" full HD sensors, then yes, I would definitely go for it for ~$3000. That's the equivalent camera I am expecting Canon to release next April.

[Rumpelgeist]

If there was an HMC-152 with 24 mbps recording, AND 1/2" full HD sensors, then yes, I would definitely go for it for ~$3000. That's the equivalent camera I am expecting Canon to release next April.

(true && false) is still false, but if it is any consolation, the HMC15x records with AVERAGE bitrate of 21Mbps, MAXIMUM bitrate of 24Mbps, pretty much the same as Canon camcorders.

Also, if it is another consolation, the new HPX300, a professional shoulder-mount camera with about $8.5-10K price uses 1/3-inch sensors too. Have you seen Philip Bloom's video review and the recent footage?

And just to note, the HMC154 sold in Europe is 50Hz/60Hz switchable, American HMC150 is 60Hz only.

[Ian-T]

This is not a video through the eyes of the cam...but just a look at it.

[ame="http://vimeo.com/3455977"]Lumix GH1 on Vimeo[/ame]

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>AVERAGE bitrate of 21Mbps, MAXIMUM bitrate of 24Mbps, pretty much the same as Canon camcorders.

This is not the same as 24 mbps constant, it is not as good (especially if most of your footage has a lot of motion, as some of my videos). And as I said, it has a smaller sensor, plus it has that big prosumer body with the overhead mic that I don't really need (I can attach an external mic on the advanced shoe if I wanted one). The HMC-154 could be my last resort if I can't find what I need, but I might just lose my enthusiasm by then about videography anyway before I decide to eventually go for it.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I guess I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of the current consumer/prosumer cams we see coming out.

I am looking it from the viewpoint of what I need to make the kind of videos I do. I am not interested to see it from the point of view of what their marketing bozos have decided to offer us, decisions that some times are taken just because they don't want to cannibalize their prosumer lines -- pure fear and not market sense.

In the digital photography world, Canon did the right thing and offered powerful digicams (for their time) as early as 2001. I feel that video is 10 years behind in terms of *the kind of market segmentation* it uses compared to the photography market.

Maybe I should re-start my videography hobby in 10 years time. If I am still alive by then.

>While each of them are nice and can make great pictures no matter which one we buy we will need some sort of 35mm adapter on them

I don't use any adapter for my videos, and I am happy with the way they come out in terms of DoF. Please note, I do own an DoF adapter (Worley's), but I don't really need it. I need other features instead.

>I want to go forward in technology just like you....but these manufacturers will not give us exactly what we want especially in this price range.

They easily could though. If they are not interested in catering to the market of tinkerers and enthusiasts -- that most of us are over here --, then maybe we should not buy their sh*t. What you are telling me is that I should buy their products even if they are not much better than the existing product I own, just because they don't want to offer to us better products (because of this artificial market segmentation manner). This is just blind consumerism. Sorry, I don't function this way. My father taught me only to buy the things I need to, nothing [much] more, nothing less.

>Also....60p....with decent Bokeh....who else has this? Wow...I consider that an upgrade from what I currently have.

It's still 720p. Talk to me about 1080/60p and then we are talking. You see, 1080/60i, when using the bob+weave algorithm, gives us a clean 1920x540 resolution at 60 fps.
1920x540 = 1036800 px at 60 progressive frames.
1280x720 = 921600 px at 60 progressive frames.
Sorry, but from where I am sitting, there are more pixels to work with on any AVCHD consumer camera than on this 720/60p Panny GH1. Downscale that 1920x540/60p progressive video to 720/60p and you will have the same amount of pixels/frames as the GH1. Do your math Ian, don't get over-enthusiastic about it just because 720/60p sounds exciting. You can easily have the exact same feature today wth 1080/60i if you know how to properly process your videos!

Plus, 720/60p (currently at 17 mbps in the GH1) needs twice the bitrate of 720/30p. So 8.5 mbps for 720/30p is just NOT enough to hold any good quality in there, let along 17 mbps for 720/60p. It just ain't enough. You will get much better quality with a 720/60p video derived out of 25 mbps 1080/60i video!

[Zacatac]

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup...e/movie_d.html

Just looking at it, the rolling shutter doesn't look so bad for pans at that speed

[-Rogue5-]

My ideal cam would be a Red One....but for $4000 and with even better low-light performance. I'd really like to get 35-esque depth of field... I don't care for interchangeable lenses simply because they cost so much I probably wouldn't take advantage of it.

So what's the problem with the fixed lens Scarlet? 2/3" and it's not gonna be available any time soon. Next up is 5DmkII, but with no 23.976fps or manual control (and being the same price as the fixed lens scarlet) makes it a hard sell.

-Rogue5-

[dcloud]

avchd is better than hdv if the camera has the processor to encode it. but i wish panny can be persuaded to increasing the bitrate

i can tell you the rlling shutter is not as bad as the d90

[Rumpelgeist]

I will take 720p60 over 1080i60 any time. No need to argue, benefits and drawbacks of each format are known. I consider 720p60 to be superior.

Also, if this is about market segmentation, then it is not only about regular consumers. As I said above, the new shoulder-mount HPX300 with ~$9K price has 1/3-inch chips. You are asking for 1/2 chips in a $2K cam. I am not saying it is impossible, after all the Samsung X20-something had 1/1.8-inch chip, but Samsung stopped making it, I suppose too expensive to make and not many takers. This is a niche for Samsung/Casio, to stick a huge sensor into GL-2 sized body. Someone will do it eventually, if not Canon then Samsung.

http://exposureroom.com/members/phil...e1286775b810a/
http://exposureroom.com/members/phil...68f36775fb396/

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Creating a bigger sensor than usual is not as big of a problem as it used to be 5 or 10 years ago. It is easily within the realm of Canon to create such a sensor, and keep it low in price. It is about market segmentation at this point for not doing it. This very camera this thread is about proves that.

>I will take 720p60 over 1080i60 any time. [...] I consider 720p60 to be superior.

You don't get my point. The difference between 720/60p and 720-produced by 1920x540/60p is not huge in quality. Most people would never notice, except possibly for high motion shots. Now, here is my point: would this small difference between the two kinds of 720p is enough for you to take your wallet out and pay for a $1000-$1500 camera? Plus, as I said, the bitrate is just not enough for 60p. Overall, this camera just doesn't do enough for me to justify buying it.

[dcloud]

720 24p would at least work for the 17 mbps bitrate but we dont have that! I want my cake and eat it too

[jakjak9210]

Well. im a poor highschool student, and i would love to have something other than a borrowed gl-2 or old sony vx1000. So i am saving up every single dime i get this summer to buy an HMC 150. I am quite literally not driving just so i can afford it. Now, if canon or similar bring out a $2-2.5k cam that has full manual control, and shoots to solid state/harddrive, and has both zoom/focus rings i would be elated. but alas, i see no such camera in the near future.

[Noel]

I feel the same way with jakjak9210. I'm not anywhere as good as a lot of people here with video editing. But i'm willing to save for a good camcorder. And if I'm taking my time capturing videos. I'd like to have the best camera possible to make my efforts worth it. I'm guessing Canon has a model like GL5. Waiting for the moment RedScarlet will start selling. But don't want to wait too long. What do you think? Come on Canon-Sony- Eugenia needs a good prosumer camera. I don't want to buy another camera that's about the same as the HV20 either.