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Thread: vegas computer RGB to studio RGB??

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    Forum Mithril blondandfun's Avatar
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    Default vegas computer RGB to studio RGB??

    For DVD distribution, what is the consensus on comp rgb to stu rgb? Is this effect outdated for LCD televisions? My LCD tv's color looks just like the computer's.

    Also, simple vegas question, how do you apply this effect throughout whole project? I can't copy attributes, that screws up everything.

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    Leg-end um3k's Avatar
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    DVDs should always keep the important tones within the 16-235 range, which I assume is what Vegas calls Studio RGB. It's alright to have unimportant highlights above 235, as some (but not all!) TVs will display that range. But everything below 16 will be clipped by all properly set up systems, and should never contain any information except in the specific case of calibration signals.

    There is an exception, if you are the only one who will be using the disc, on a system that has been set up specifically for it, you're welcome to use any range you want, be it 0-255 or 120-136.

    As far as the Vegas usage question goes, I can't help you there. Vegas is a complete mystery to me, being a Premiere Pro user.

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    Forum Mogul Lou van Wijhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blondandfun View Post
    For DVD distribution, what is the consensus on comp rgb to stu rgb? Is this effect outdated for LCD televisions? My LCD tv's color looks just like the computer's.
    HDTV should comply with Rec. 709 where reference black is defined as 8-bit interface code 16 and reference white is defined as 8-bit interface code 235.

    Also, simple vegas question, how do you apply this effect throughout whole project? I can't copy attributes, that screws up everything.
    You can apply this Computer RGB to Studio RGB effect to every video event in your project by clicking the Video Output FX button in the Video Preview window.

    I found out that the Mainconcept MPEG-2 encoder as well as the and Sony AVC encoder in Vegas discards everything under 16 and over 235. This wouldn't be a problem if camcorders stayed within the 16-235 range. However, a lot of them don't and the HV20 is no exception. The HV20 (and HV30/40?) records whites up to 255 and some blacks under 16. I think my edited footage looks better when this effect is applied. Some people only adjust the whites using the Levels effect.

    Lou
    S/W: Sony Vegas Pro 12, PC: Processor Intel i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz, Camera: HF M41 PAL, WD-H43 Wide Adapter, Røde VM/SVM + Canon DM-100 mic.

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    Leg-end um3k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou van Wijhe View Post
    HDTV should comply with Rec. 709 where reference black is defined as 8-bit interface code 16 and reference white is defined as 8-bit interface code 235.
    This is true, but DVDs actually should comply with Rec.601, which is admittedly pretty much irrelevant here because the levels are the same and it's up to the software to handle the color conversion properly. But I felt like saying something anyways.

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    Forum Mithril blondandfun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou van Wijhe View Post
    HDTV should comply with Rec. 709 where reference black is defined as 8-bit interface code 16 and reference white is defined as 8-bit interface code 235.
    thanks. For a wedding though, where they may watch this in 20 years when all TV's are better, do you think I should ignore the Computer RGB to Studio RGB FX?

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    Leg-end um3k's Avatar
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    It has nothing to do with how good the TVs are, it's simply a matter of what the standards are defined as. To create a full-range DVD would be just as uncompliant in 20 years as it is now. However, if at no point did you convert to computer RGB, there should be no reason to convert back, and to do so would cause a flat, low-contrast image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blondandfun View Post
    For DVD distribution, what is the consensus on comp rgb to stu rgb? Is this effect outdated for LCD televisions? My LCD tv's color looks just like the computer's.

    Also, simple vegas question, how do you apply this effect throughout whole project? I can't copy attributes, that screws up everything.
    Studio RGB to Computer is to calibrate your monitor, to show colors as they will look on a TV played from the DVD.

    You may use an extra Color Corrector FX, remember to unhook before rendering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oddmanil View Post
    Studio RGB to Computer is to calibrate your monitor, to show colors as they will look on a TV played from the DVD.

    You may use an extra Color Corrector FX, remember to unhook before rendering.
    So I leave the settings off while I edit and color correct and I only use it to check the result and make color and luminance judgements based on it? Does this apply to LCD and Plasma, or just the old tube type tv's or all tv's?
    So what we are basically saying is that on average computer monitors are brighter with more subtle levels of contrast?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou van Wijhe View Post
    HDTV should comply with Rec. 709 where reference black is defined as 8-bit interface code 16 and reference white is defined as 8-bit interface code 235.
    There is also LED technology that supports extended color to BT1361, which provides room for a wider colour gamut than Rec709/sRGB fed via a hdmi 1.3 interface. Rec709 / sRGB covers a small proportion of the gamut range certain cameras can supposedly capture The Canon 7D, T2i, 5D mkII in their specification support extended colour capture. But it requires capturing above and below 16 - 235.

    This wouldn't be a problem if camcorders stayed within the 16-235 range. However, a lot of them don't and the HV20 is no exception. The HV20 (and HV30/40?) records whites up to 255 and some blacks under 16.
    Perhaps need to make a distinction between acquisition, when we really want to capture as much info as possible and delivery where we have to 'format' the video information into a certain restricted range for 'correct' display on what are becoming 'legacy' systems.

    I'd rather expose for the full range 0 - 255 to achieve extended colour capture / handling and then choose where to hold onto the data going to a reduced range during post. As long as the NLE is cooperative to working with the extended range. :-)
    Last edited by diffid; 2011 January 9th at 04:10.

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    Forum Mogul Lou van Wijhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diffid View Post
    ... I'd rather expose for the full range 0 - 255 to achieve extended colour capture / handling and then choose where to hold onto the data going to a reduced range during post. As long as the NLE is cooperative to working with the extended range. :-)
    Interesting post, Diffid! Sony Vegas Pro does indeed capture the full range, as confirmed by its maker, Sony Creative Software. In editing and levels correction I always look to use the full range and only in the final output I use the Computer to Studio RGB FX. Using this FX, Sony Vegas doesn't simply cut off but remaps 0-255 to 16-235. It then looks excellent on my Sony Bravia LCD TV.

    Lou
    S/W: Sony Vegas Pro 12, PC: Processor Intel i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz, Camera: HF M41 PAL, WD-H43 Wide Adapter, Røde VM/SVM + Canon DM-100 mic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou van Wijhe View Post
    Interesting post, Diffid! Sony Vegas Pro does indeed capture the full range, as confirmed by its maker, Sony Creative Software. In editing and levels correction I always look to use the full range and only in the final output I use the Computer to Studio RGB FX. Using this FX, Sony Vegas doesn't simply cut off but remaps 0-255 to 16-235. It then looks excellent on my Sony Bravia LCD TV.

    Lou
    Absolutely, only as one of the last ops before encoding and then the squashed levels expanded back out at the player for digital TV or not depending on setup.

    I think Vegas may provide a 32bit float precision option which I think is what you are describing and possibly holds onto the wider gamut through colour correction where the YCbCr sources are transformed to RGB for applying the colour corrections. I believe this is what Adobe refers to extended range for DSLR's in CS5's, not sRGB gamut but AdobeRGB.

    That YCbCr to RGB calculation I'd consider better done on full range values than full range squashed into restricted or worse truncated 16 - 235.

    I think some NLE's pull the full into restricted at import via codec and work on the restricted range through editing etc and worse just in 8bit precison. Not best route IMO. Although I'm no expert, just for discussion.
    Last edited by diffid; 2011 January 9th at 08:04.

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    Legend racer-x's Avatar
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    From my testing.........Vegas converts all input streams into "Computer RGB-32". This is the best way to go when you will be doing color grading and adjustments. The problem with Vegas is it's included encoders. They will clip the whites and blacks unless you apply the conversion filter before exporting. If you export as uncompressed or use an external codec, then the colors will retain the full range.

    I like to edit in Vegas, then frameserve out and into an external encoder. I often run it through Avisynth to adjust the colors and do the color conversions back to YV12 or whatever I need at the moment.
    There is no such thing as "Idiot-Proof".........a good Idiot will get around that every time.

  13. #13
    Forum Mogul Lou van Wijhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer-x View Post
    ... The problem with Vegas is it's included encoders. They will clip the whites and blacks unless you apply the conversion filter before exporting. ...
    That's right. Both the Mainconcept MPEG-2 and the Sony AVC encoder do clip these "illegal" values.

    Lou
    S/W: Sony Vegas Pro 12, PC: Processor Intel i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz, Camera: HF M41 PAL, WD-H43 Wide Adapter, Røde VM/SVM + Canon DM-100 mic.

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