Voice Recorder vs Wireless Mic

[wild_quinine]

Hi,

New here. HV20 arrived today. Been a heck of a job getting one.

My brother bought this with me as part of a wedding gift thing. My wedding - next week.

In theory, the wedding memories that we'll film with it are the gift, but we all know that the camcorder is the gadget of the moment.

Now I've read a bit about microphones on this site, and I'm all for getting a Rode - seems like there's very few people with a bad word to say about them. The only thing is that the stereo mic - which some kind soul here pointed out was better for ambient noise, i.e. weddings - is well over twice the price of the shotgun. I'm based in the UK, by the way. I don't really want to spend more than 100 pounds.

There will be a bit of speech filming, but a lot of what gets recorded will simply be the wedding in progress. In your more experienced opinions, would it be better to use the built-in mic for this than the Rode shotgun? Or is the shotgun better than the built-in mic for most purposes, but specifically excels in close one to one environments?

If there's an external stereo mic within in my budget in the UK that's notably better than the built in mic, I'd take that under happy advisment!

[Lunchbox]

I tried several methods through the year. The problem for using shotgun mic is, say like you are recording a speech. Okay, sound is good. Then you want to do some B-roll such as panning to the audience. All of a sudden, the sound becomes muffle.

I also tried wireless lavalier. A lot of times the wireless frequency interfere with the wireless equipment used in the location. I ended up recording lots of noise and no audio to use.

For speech or wedding ceremony, I recommend something like that,

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-WS-300...4007252&sr=8-1

Then buy a small wired clip micrphone clipped to the speaker or groom. Then have the speaker put the voice recorder to the front pocket.

https://emporium.olympus.com/innards...sku=145045-410

pros: you get clear audio. also a second audio track to be used on top of the audio recorded with your cacmcorder for ambience sound.

cons: you have to synchronize the additonal audio track with the video recorded with the camcorder. From experience, I keep the camcorder recording so I only have to synchornize once per video clip.

it's also fun you can hear people peeing in the restroom, cursing, talk shit of other people.. because they forgot the voice recorder has been on.

[wild_quinine]

Sounds like good advice - thanks! - but I think it's a bit beyond what I can achieve... see I'm not the videographer, I'm the groom. I know from experience that unless I'm running around with the digital recorder putting it in the right pockets it just won't get done - and that's too much to worry about on the day. The guys who will be holding my HV20 are experienced enough - much more so than I am - and I think I can trust them to pop a shotgun on for the speeches, and we'll use the built in mics for the rest of the day.

[veg]

Taky...
Does that Olympus WS-300M come with the necessary cable to download to comp.? If not what cable is required?.
Veg.

[joachim]

Then you want to do some B-roll such as panning to the audience. All of a sudden, the sound becomes muffle.

the solution to this problem is far cheaper than buying extra gear.
keep the camera pointed to the subject during an important speech, take the B-roll shots at the time audio ain't that important.

it isn't the holy grail, but a cost effectif solution.

[veg]

Ignore my last post Taky. I've just had a google and see it has a built in USB.

[Lunchbox]

My another idea is to mount the R0de videomic on a tripod and connect to the Olympus voice recorder pointing to a speaker system. In that case, I can get better audio for the entire event as well as this additional audio track to manipulate with in NLE. Don't have to worry about recording the un-usable sound when I reposition the tripod.

[24Peter]

the solution to this problem is far cheaper than buying extra gear.
keep the camera pointed to the subject during an important speech, take the B-roll shots at the time audio ain't that important.

it isn't the holy grail, but a cost effectif solution.

Problem with that approach is you don't get the reaction shots you want.

Taky - I've shot a couple of weddings with an AT897. The mic is very directional - which is great until you're trying to get the brides reaction to her brother's heartwarming comments. His speech sounds like poop until you pan back.

I've only shot two weddings with wireless setups but I didn't have the interference problems you mentioned. (I was using UHF mics.) I was able to run the wireless lav on one channel ("mounted" on the groom) and a camera mounted shotgun on the other. That gave me two channels of audio to play with and I was usually able to salvage my sound. Problem was, I didn't use the wireless setup during the reception (only during the ceremony.) So during the speeches I was left with panning problem mentioned above.

There are XLR wireless adapters out there that you can use with a shotgun mic. So perhaps the answer is to use one on one audio channel on a boom for the speeches and a second one on-camera on the other channel. That much audio gear gets a little hectic on an HV20 but worked great on my DVX100 (and probably your GL2). Point is, having two mics is ideal in these situations.

[markphil]

...I used one last month on the HV20, no complaints at all.

[Apo]

Hi

I´m also figuring the best way to record audio weddings.
I recorded a friend wedding last month, and i have some more to do.
I already have a recorder like that one that Taky refered. I didnt use it for a very long time but maybe now is a good oportunity to give it some use.
Do you find a very bad solution to use the built-in mic for all wedding, and complement that using that recorder with a mic in the groom.

Is a shotgun mic give me a much better sound performance that built-in mic?

If i use a shotgun mic (like Rode Vid) can i turn it of and bring the built-in mic back to record B-roll shots (does this means secondary recording, like guests and other things not so important)

Thanks

[Lunchbox]

It would be nice to have the voice recorder attached to the groom. It's an additional audio track comes handy if you need to fix some audio problems.

I uses 2 camcorders to record weddings so I have multiple angles, as well as, I can change tape in one while the other one is still recording. Nothing lose.

I use shotgun mic a lot when people giving speeches. The problem is if you shot cutaways (b-roll), sound becomes muffle. You can unplug the shotgun mic and the built-in mic will kick in. But then you generate more noise while plugging and unplugging the mic.

Maybe the Canon DM50 will be a good mic for you as it acts as shotgun mic as well as a wide stereo mic for ambience sound.

Good luck

[PWHerman]

I uses 2 camcorders to record weddings so I have multiple angles, as well as, I can change tape in one while the other one is still recording. Nothing lose.

Are you an octopus or just really talented?

[Lunchbox]

I'm just talented... just kidding.

Having both camcorders sitting on tripod and recording at the same time gives lots of flexibility during post editing work. It saves my ass a few times too (tape jammed, drop-out, bad audio...) Totally worth the investment.

[Lunchbox]

I shot a lot of weddings. I tried using wireless lavalier mic. The results was okay. The problem will be getting lots of static if the person with the mic is too far away. Also, there are times the wireless frequency interfere with the wireless equipment used in the location. I ended up recording lots of static noise and no audio to use.

Therefore, instead of using a wireless mic, I am now using a voice recorder like this one,

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-WS-300...4007252&sr=8-1

With a small wired clip micrphone clipped to the speaker, it records nice and clear.

https://emporium.olympus.com/innards...sku=145045-410

pros: you get clear audio. also a second audio track to be used on top of the audio recorded with your cacmcorder for ambience sound.

cons: you have to synchronize the additonal audio track with the video recorded with the camcorder. From experience, I keep the camcorder recording so I only have to synchornize once per video clip.

It's also fun you can hear people peeing in the restroom, cursing, speak ill of other people.. because they forgot the voice recorder has been on.

Update
This is a sample audio clip from the voice recorder I used

http://hottaky.com/hv20/kermit2.wma

[zephyrnoid]

That's a great tip. I used an MD recorder thst way for years.

[Terfyn]

We talk a lot about recording into the HV20 but I think this is the way to go. I took the parallel route to Taky with the Zoom H2. It really provides a quality sound track and is easy to sync up in post production. The HV20 is still miked up but it provides the ambient sound and background presence.
My bonus is that I can use the H2 as an IPod and listen to my type of music when driving to gigs.

[FlyingFox]

What tools are you using to sync your pocket voice recorder track to your video track or are you just finessing it by ear with the camera audio?

FF

[Lunchbox]

The tool to use is your eyes and brain

I lined up the clips on Premiere timeline. With the wave form, it is easy to synch the two clips.

[bluegrass]

The tool to use is your eyes and brain

I lined up the clips on Premiere timeline. With the wave form, it is easy to synch the two clips.

I would think without using your ears, you would need the camcorder mic to be in close proximity to the Z2 in order to sync by looking at waveforms.

Incidentally I purchased the Z4 for the same purpose. So far I haven't tried sync the Z4 to the camcoder sound because I have felt the camcorder external mics did a good enough job and the Z4 was just a backup and something that would allow me to try and improve my sound. Tracking two sources of sound and syncing them is a hassle I don't want to do unless that is the only way I can improve the audio on my video projects.

[Taynt3d]

An easy way to sync is to use an old school film trick called slating, or better yet, just use a clap. Basically, you start everything rolling, cameras and audio recorder, then you record someone clap such that the video can see the clap and the audio device also can "hear" the clap. This simple little step can make syncing a 2-second operation in post plus you'll get PERFECT sync. Just line up the spike in the audio waveform with the spot on the video right when the hands make contact. Slating is a little better because you not only get clap from the clapper board, but you also can film some notes on the board, like date, time, take, etc., which can help matching up files later if you start/stop a lot. Even if you have syncing down pat, try this sometime, it makes it SOOOO easy if you've never done it before. It also can be used to sync up multiple cameras as long as they all film the clap. One more thing, sometimes it's worth recording another "tail slate" or clap at the end, this is important if you let the cam roll for a long time, like more than 10 minutes at a stretch. Because due to the different clocks being used between the cam and the audio recorder, even if you sync the head, eventually you will lose sync over time due to drift. If you have that tail sync point (aka another clap), you can just easily sync the head like normal, but then you can stretch the audio just a tiny bit so you get the clap at the end to sync. Once you've done both, then you know you have perfect sync across the entire take. That's usually not needed for shorter runs like 5 minutes or 1o minutes, but it'll depend on the specific devices you are using, and how well they hold sync together without being jammed to common timecode.

[madmaxmedia]

Thanks for the info guys, I was looking into the Zoom H4 which is similar to the H2 but a bit cheaper I believe.

Another question- Sound quality differences aside, is mp3 okay for editing? I would just use WAV to be safe, but wondering if there are any issues with editing mp3 on a timeline- can you make reasonably precise cuts, is it etc. I guess it shouldn't be harder to sync since you're just positioning the sound against the video in a timeline.

[Lunchbox]

The Olympus recorder generates .wmv files. Together with mp3, I have no problem editing them in the timeline using Premiere Pro.

If you are using Premiere Pro also, don't have to worry about frame accuracy. Right after you import any audio files (or videos), Premiere will conform the file to a 32-bit raw format. Then all editing is based on that 32-bit file. During export, the 32-bit file is converted back to 16-bit output.

It is so dumb.

[ocoeeshooter]

I would think without using your ears, you would need the camcorder mic to be in close proximity to the Z2 in order to sync by looking at waveforms.

Incidentally I purchased the Z4 for the same purpose. So far I haven't tried sync the Z4 to the camcoder sound because I have felt the camcorder external mics did a good enough job and the Z4 was just a backup and something that would allow me to try and improve my sound. Tracking two sources of sound and syncing them is a hassle I don't want to do unless that is the only way I can improve the audio on my video projects.

Bluegrass, what external mic do you use to record live music? Tks..bob

[threadhanger]

That's a really good idea Taky. For under $200 you could have 2 very good lapel mic/recorders. That's a lot cheaper than the Beachtek and pro lavaliers.

I wonder if this one, which is less expensive, would be just as good: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...T0FVWK2FPAE6JY

[madmaxmedia]

That's a really good idea Taky. For under $200 you could have 2 very good lapel mic/recorders. That's a lot cheaper than the Beachtek and pro lavaliers.

I wonder if this one, which is less expensive, would be just as good: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...T0FVWK2FPAE6JY

Okay, this is very interesting. How do these Olympus recorders (either the cheaper or more expensive) compare with say something like a Samson H2?

I'm going to be getting a HV20 over the next few weeks to shoot short films. I don't need super high-fidelity sound, but I want to start with something reasonably versatile for recording dialogue (definitely not music or anything more demanding like that.) I like the idea of getting 1 or 2 reasonably priced voice recorders along with lapel mics just to start with, and go from there.

There's also another Olympus recorder that seems to be priced right in between the 2 in this thread-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...4007252&sr=8-1

Here's an article that directly compares the H2 to the Olympus DS-30 recorder (and has recorded samples of both with built-in mics)-
http://www.audiotranskription.de/eng...2/zoom-h2.html

The Zoom H2 can be found for under $200. I guess with lapel mics the difference between them might be very minor indeed, but the built-in mic of the H2 looks pretty good too to have as another option.