NTSC vs PAL

[vishnu.sannidi@gmail.com]

Hi,

Iam a resident of UK and i was thinking of getting a HV20 from US during my next visit. Iam so very confused with the NTSC/PAL and which format to buy. I have a tv and a DVD player which supports both(PAL & NTSC). Now my question is if I buy HV20 from US(as it is much cheaper there) will i be able to use it to watch the direct output from the camcorder to TV.

This question may have been asked multiple times, but it would be very helpfull if i can get a simple answer with out going much in to the technicalities on the image quality

Thanks

[Rikki]

I would say PAL as you get 25p without any pull down related hassles.

[Worley]

There is no simple answer as it depends on you television.

Some televisions are labelled as NTSC compatible, but what they actually display is PAL 60. What you will end up with is a black and white image from an NTSC source.

The only way to tell is by connecting a genuine NTSC source to the television.

If you do buy one in the US, pay by credit card. That way, if Canon US refuses to honour the warranty should something go wrong, your card company will have to repair or replace it.

[wolferic]

Yes this question keeps coming up.

So how's this for an answer:

-Professionals in the US have for several years spent EXTRA money to buy PAL cameras for the benefits of (various technical reasons). I have never heard of ANYONE buying an NTSC camera who lives in a PAL country for ANY reason other than price.

Hope this is simple enough.

[2Bdecided]

It's not nothing to do with image quality. It's got everything to do with the frame rate being different from the UK standard. Most UK TVs will accept accept USA 60fps, but it's a (quality trashing) hassle to convert to 50fps for compatability with all UK TVs!

If you shoot in 24p there are work arounds. If you plan on using 60i/50i - get a UK model!

Cheers,
David.

[Michael Davis]

PAL sucks because it's not AMERICAN GUITAR SOLO EFF YEAH!!

Just kidding. I'd probably buy a PAL because, at the end of the day you live in a PAL country and it's just going to be easier not worrying about conversions and if your pals can watch your videos etcetera.

[vishnu.sannidi@gmail.com]

Thanks a lot for all the replies...iam going for an PAL version...

[noizer1]

I am on the same situation. I live in Spain and I'm going to visit NY the next week. I asked on bhphoto for the pal version and now there is a difference of 400$. The PAL version cost as much as 1199,95 and the NTSC with the rebate it costs 799$.

I'm thinking that if the difference is worth. My plasma supports NTSC since I have an XBOX connected in NTSC mode to have the 720p mode available. Here you can find the HV20 around 1150$ which is cheaper and safer than buy it there, but I'm almost sure that I will not pay it for it because the first thinking of buying the camcorder was the advantage of the euro-dolar conversion.

I don't know for example if I buy a BD in the future if it will support NTSC videos from the HV20 or if I will have a lot of headaches converting videos from one format to another..

I don't want to buy the cam and be dissapointed as another user on this forum who sold his on ebay

[tcindie]

Forget about format issues.. do you really want to spend the kind of money involved with buying an hv20 and not have it be covered by the warranty? That's the problem that arises when purchasing an out of country camera. For example, I could have gotten my NTSC camera on ebay -- imported from Japan -- for a little bit less money, but since it was the Japanese model, the warranty was no good here.

Maybe $800, or whatever the current going rate is, is just a tiny drop in the bucket for you... personally that's about 1/3 my monthly income. So to drop that much with no coverage should something go wrong seems irresponsible to me.

[Worley]

In the UK, so long as you pay by Credit Card and the item costs over £100, you are covered.

The the retailer won't honour the warranty, then the credit card company is liable.

I repeat, pay by credit card and you ARE covered!

[colonelpanic]

I reckon you get what you pay for.
My first DV about 8 years ago was in fact an NTSC one and in retrospect I regretted having opted for the actually marginal monetary savings in return for a noticeable drop in picture quality compared to the EU model, conversion hassle and compatibility issues back in Europe. I reckon NTSC colours are not as vibrant and natural as PAL. NTSC footage looks sort of washed out and 'beige-brown-ish'.
Matter of taste after all, of course.

[wisshv]

Well, I think as far as HDV output is concerned, there should be NO difference in the color space between the "NTSC" and the "PAL" camcorder (that is different when you output standard definition video from those cams). Therefore, if you output the HDV signal to your HD capable TV (or to your computer), the color quality, I think, should be the same. The only difference should be the frame rate (25 with PAL versus 29.something with NTSC cam). Please correct me, if I am wrong.

[yorugua]

Hi everyone,

One question that might remain is: given the "new world" of digital TV's, what would be the "TV standards" of the future and its "compatibities" and "incompatibilities"? In the past, we had PAL/PAL-N/PAL-M/NTSC/SECAM tv's you had to watch out for compatibility. Now, the thing is also taking care of 1080i/p/60/50, 720p/60/50. Are we going to get tv's (LCD's, Plasma's, DLP's, etc) that are going to be 1080ip/720/60 only, but no /50?!? is it really worth bothering?

If the resolution is now standard, and there's no spatial resolution differences between /60 and /50 formats, is it "good" to have two "incompatible" standards because of /60/50 and TV sets that "implement" said incompatibility ? What if in the "digital tv world", the /60/50 was something all TV's are compatible with so all sets are both /60 and /50?

I have a Sharp 37" LCD 1080p tv, and it accepts both NTSC (60hz) and PAL-B (50hz) s-video and component inputs with no problem. I figure it should also work with HDMI /50 and / 60 inputs (I still have to hook up my OPPO dvd and check some region-2 movies. I have tried playing some mpeg's from my old TRV-510E Sony Pal D8 camcorder copied to my US-bought PlayStation 3 and it also worked)... why can't my camera be both /60 and /50 so that I can pick whatever "look" looks better to me? If and HDV camera is somehow designed/expected to work with an HDTV TV set, and all sets are in fact /60 and /50 compatible, what's the point of having /60 *OR* /50 camcorders only? is it really that expensive to have one and the other in the same box?

Also, there used to be all kind of artifacts on PAL-NTSC conversion because of differences in temporal and spatial definition of those standards. Now the spatial resolution seems to be equal on both /50 and /60 "digital" standards. What should we expect about the conversion process for /60 and /50 based standards in the digital HD domain, if we are all not going to have "compatible" TV sets? I have relatives in both /50 and /60 countries: what should I expect in the future when sending "digital" material over there or they send me something? What if the digital broadcaster would only "adjust" its broadcast to /50 or /60 depending on the source material, if everything is "compatible" and mostly a "software" issue and/or just a flag on the data stream? Wouldn't that be "cheaper" than doing the "conversion" thing and lower the quality of said material?

pd: in the past, I usually preferred PAL stuff since PAL-color was better from my point of view, and it had better resolution. But now in the digital domain, things seem to be different. Most CRT TV's sets here are PAL-N/PAL-M/NTSC. A few add PAL-B compatibility over video inputs (RF is different).

[2Bdecided]

In Europe, all HD-ready sets can do 720p50, 720p60, 1080i50, and 1080i60...

http://www.eicta.org/index.php?id=32&id_article=50

(click on "conditions for HD labelling of display devices")


The 60Hz countries will stay with 60Hz. The largest 60Hz country doesn't really know the rest of the world exists, so it's not like they're going to change to acomodate every else!

The 50Hz countries thought about switching to 60Hz, but there are several good reasons to stick with 50Hz:

1. Compatibility between existing SD transmissions, SD archive, and HD (converting 60<>50 is much harder, and more expensive to do well, than converting same rate SD<>HD)
2. Flicker when filming under electric lights operated at a different frequency from the camera (some countries have this issue and live with it, but most have chosen not to by matching TV frequency with mains frequency)
3. 3-2 pulldown. The 24>60 judder pattern looks abhorrent to European eyes. We're not used to it. We are used to our speed up, though it would be better to avoid it. This implies 72Hz, and that has all the other disadvantages of both systems! So, we accept 24>25 speed up, no extra judder.
4. Efficiency. 50Hz systems have a more visible flicker than 60Hz systems, when watching on interlaced CRTs. When watching on progressive flat panels, this become irrelevant, and having 10 fewer pictures per second (which isn't really visible) just makes the system more efficient.

So, it's not an accident.

For an HDV camcorder, 1, 2, and 4 are still relevant, with one being the most important.

I agree it would be nice to be able to switch, though this would probably confuse some users.

Cheers,
David.

[tcindie]

In the UK, so long as you pay by Credit Card and the item costs over £100, you are covered.

The the retailer won't honour the warranty, then the credit card company is liable.

I repeat, pay by credit card and you ARE covered!

I don't see how that can work, since it's the manufacturer's warranty that's not valid in Countries other than the intended market.. That just seems strange to me.

[2Bdecided]

I don't see how that can work, since it's the manufacturer's warranty that's not valid in Countries other than the intended market.. That just seems strange to me.

That's because you're in America and have far fewer consumer rights in this area than UK/Europe.

You should see the mandatory 2 year guarantee in parts of the EU (not UK, yet) - makes the typical 90 day warranty in the USA seem very poor!

Cheers,
David.

[mdw]

You should see the mandatory 2 year guarantee in parts of the EU (not UK, yet) - makes the typical 90 day warranty in the USA seem very poor!

On the other hand the prices in Europe are one third higher than in the US.

-mdw

[lwm99]

I live in South East Asia, where TV broadcast is in PAL. But all our HD DVD and Blu-ray players, PS3, Xbox sold here are in NTSC. TVs are multi-systems.

I bought HV20 online from Japan (NTSC), with 1 year warranty from Canon Japan. The saving is enough for me to send through courier (to and fro) a few times to Japan for servicing within the warranty period, with the mail order company handles the logistics within Japan.

If I understand correctly, for the video that I took with my NTSC HV20, when I create a DVD (with HD content) either from video editing software or burn direct to a blank DVD, I can view it on HD DVD or Blu-ray players sold here (which are in NTSC). But if I buy a local HV20 (PAL), then the only way for me to view it on a TV is direct connect from the camcorder to the TV, unless I convert the video from PAL to NTSC on a PC.

[2Bdecided]

On the other hand the prices in Europe are one third higher than in the US.

And our wages are less! The usual rule (for a very long time) is that price in £ = price in $. Which, at the current exchange rate, means we are paying double! There are a lot of people in the UK buying anything they can from the USA! Unfortunately, with PAL/NTSC incompatibilities, this doesn't extend to most AV equipment.

Cheers,
David.

[L33]

So, I have read a lot of PAL vs NTSC on the forums but I am wondering if someone could give me a little advice.
Next Friday I move to Canada and just a few weeks ago I brought a HV20 in the UK (PAL). I took it to Canada and filmed out there while I was looking for a house but didn't really think too much about the whole NTSC issue... that was until I plugged the HV20 into a friends Panasonic HD LCD using HDMI during my visit there. The picture was blank and no video played at all. We plugged in his HD Camcorder and it was fine so it was my HV20 not working on his TV (works fine here on my HDTV now I am back).

So my dilemma is what can I do when I get to Canada. I have a HD LCD in shipment (Hitachi 32LD7200) which supports NTSC & PAL (and 110v thankfully!) but when I get there I want a big screen. I have been looking at Sony Bravia XBR4/XBR5s but they dont support PAL.
Should I take my camera with me on the buying trips and see if any of the TVs will play back the video from the camera or is my luck out. I just cant find any screens over there that support PAL & NTSC like most of them appear to here.

Any advice is greatly appriciated!

[Worley]

There are other reasons why the prices are high, too. Import duty, VAT, and stupid EU rules that say a camcorder with DV is a video recorder which attracts another tax.

Overheads are higher here, too. Every sodding thing is taxed one way or another. Fuel - petrol, gas, electricity - all taxed. Restaurant food, taxed. Clothes, taxed. Cars, taxed. Television, taxed.

Even if you buy the HV20 abroad, when you import it you are supposed to pay tax on it (it is illegal not to).

--------

It's about time we in the UK had the two year manufacturer warranty; we're supposed to be part of Europe, so let's have the good as well as the bad (the extra tax we have to pay).

Yes, credit card companies appealed against the ruling that they had to pay, but they lost the case. It was an ambiguity in the consumer credit act 1975 (or somesuch law) that had to be clarified. And the law lords ruled that the particular clause covered both domestic and non-domestic purchases, where the single item cost more than £100.

So, there is something good about the UK.

[2Bdecided]

L33, there are multi-standard TVs available in the USA - it's just that they're not ubiquitous like over here. Shop with care.

Cheers,
David.

[JiveTalker]

I am wondering if I used an NTSC camera in UK recording indoors in a large room with dozens of ceiling lights running off the mains (at 50hz) would there be any strobing or dimming problems on a camera recording at 60i or 24P?

Or is the flicker on a mains mlight so fast that it is never an issue at any of the standard frame rates? I guess "slomo" would create issue in any format...

One of my primary uses when I purchase an HV20 will be recordind dancing in a ballroom and I want to be sure that it doesn't matter whether I purchase a PAL or NTSC camera. (NB. My home equipment all supports both formats). Obviously the NTSC model is much cheaper.

[2Bdecided]

I am wondering if I used an NTSC camera in UK recording indoors in a large room with dozens of ceiling lights running off the mains (at 50hz) would there be any strobing or dimming problems on a camera recording at 60i or 24P?

It depends on the lights and the shutter speed. 24p should be fine (but not much good for fast movement).

I have a digital still camera that records at 30p or 60p and sometimes some flicker is visible under artificial light here in the UK. It tends to pick a very short/fast shutter speed sometimes though.

You can force whatever shutter speed you want on the HV20, though forcing a slower speed to avoid flicker might not be ideal and even 1/60th will give flicker under some lights.

Also, if you get a PAL TV in shot by accident (or intentionally) on an NTSC HV20, expect it to flicker and have horrible horizontal bands. With a PAL HV20, there would be no problem - you can film "off screen" very well.

One of my primary uses when I purchase an HV20 will be recordind dancing in a ballroom and I want to be sure that it doesn't matter whether I purchase a PAL or NTSC camera. (NB. My home equipment all supports both formats).

Are you the only person who will play back this footage? Whilst most UK TVs play back NTSC OK (though some older models don't), the vargaries of DVD playback (NTSC, PAL, or PAL60?) and connections (RF, composite, RGB, or YPbPr/component) mean that some people will end up watching a black-and-white picture, or no picture at all - even though their equipment could play the content back properly if it was re-configured.

Cheers,
David.

[RobPhoboS]

Just use PAL so you dont have to do all that pull down BS.
Its only about £550 on amazon.