Lots of motion blur when using HF20 with 24p

[PhenomenalWorld]

I have been using a Canon HF20 for a couple months. I'm greatly satisfied with everything visual-wise (24p is awesome for my purposes) except that there is a LARGE amount of blur that occurs when moving, panning, fast tilting the camera at all. Basically I feel I can only use it on still subjects. Before this I was using the HV40 with 24p and had no similar troubles really. The problem is so bad with the HF20 that I've had to wonder: does anybody else experience this? Maybe my cam is faulty?

Thoughts?
Thanks.

[cgbier]

I'd say the AVCHD codec used in your cam adds to the problem.

[PhenomenalWorld]

cgbier, can you expound on that a bit? are you saying it has little or nothing to do with 24p mode...or what?

[Bif]

I have been using a Canon HF20 for a couple months. I'm greatly satisfied with everything visual-wise (24p is awesome for my purposes) except that there is a LARGE amount of blur that occurs when moving, panning, fast tilting the camera at all. Basically I feel I can only use it on still subjects. Before this I was using the HV40 with 24p and had no similar troubles really. The problem is so bad with the HF20 that I've had to wonder: does anybody else experience this? Maybe my cam is faulty?

Thoughts?
Thanks.

The HF20 does not do "true" native 24p like the HV40 can, but rather does it in a 60i "stream", requiring the use of other software utilities to remove "pulldown" (extra frames added to the cadence). Depending on the editor you use this may or may not cause problems when you try to playback or edit your "take".

24 frames per second is a bit of an archaic "holdover" from the days when that was established as the standard frame rate for motion picture film and is rarely necessary in our present time. While commercial motion picture had continued to use 24fps for production, modern theatres equipment actually projects each frame twice to smooth out the flicker that gives some people headaches (the women in my family used to be very susceptible to this).

While Blu-ray uses 24p, some of the industry has been looking at faster frame rates for awhile now. "The Hobbit" is being filmed (actually recorded digitally, not with film) at 48 frames per second (progressive I believe) and others are looking at 60p for future features.

My suggestion would be to try setting the HF20 for default 60i or for 30p (the latter being progressive but having no "pulldown" to mess with), set your shutter at 1/60th which will allow motion blur similar to what "native" 24p does (close enough to what you got with the HV40 to not show significant difference) and see what the result looks like to you.

I've rendered HV20 60i and HF100 60i on the same timeline to Blu-ray compliant AVCHD on standard DVD media and had that play just fine on a Blu-ray player (don't try to play that disk on a conventional DVD player though, it'll likely refuse to eject). DVD players and TVs seem to "sort out" frame rates pretty well.

Bruce Foreman

[PhenomenalWorld]

Hi Bruce,
Interesting. Thanks much for all that. It is late at night and I must sleep now but I do have one raging question that can't wait. The HV40 was the love of my life (precisely because of 24p) but the motor's noise, even with various portable mics attached, drove me crazy. I thought the HF20 was a perfect solution (especially as, for my purposes, I can make do with the built-in microphone which has little to no hiss or noise t'all...portability and easy grab&shoot are essential to my film work) but now I'm learning that, alas, it's unfortunately not perfect at all, or even workable, because of this blur issue. And now, through you, I learn that pulldown is required - something I struggled with when using HV20 and HV30. AND it's not even real 24p. I will try your suggestion tomorrow. But here's my question: I'm about to head out of the country and will do some filming among other things. If there were another very portable consumer or pro-sumer I could purchase (used, as I'm broke) that has "true" native 24p like the HV40 cam, I'm very open to suggestions. Basically, I love the smooth, grainy, "film-like" look that the HV40's 24p offered. I can hardly live without that look for my films. I don't care what the rate or speed is, I just like that look, and nearly hate the sterile cut & dry look of video without any of those characteristics.

So, any quickie camera suggestions??

[Krane]

The 24fps is meant to match that of film which set that frame rate to sync with audio. There are cameras that will give you true 24fps but your best bet is to stop/limit zooming and panning which distracts from the quality of a good film. If you have lots of fast motion, forget about 24fps.

[cgbier]

Shoot 30p. I doubt you'll see much of a difference.

[PhenomenalWorld]

The 24fps is meant to match that of film which set that frame rate to sync with audio. There are cameras that will give you true 24fps but your best bet is to stop/limit zooming and panning which distracts from the quality of a good film. If you have lots of fast motion, forget about 24fps.

I'm not much of a zoomer at all. Panning for me includes simply following action as it goes past the camera, or dialogue between two different bodies. The HF20 creates serious blur when there is any movement of the camera really. Therefore it's not really about "fast motion", but about any real motion of the camera, even panning very slowly. Again if someone has a camera recommendation for true 24fps, I'd much appreciate it.

[PhenomenalWorld]

I'll check 30p out again, but if I recall, there is a sizable difference in affect.

[Bif]

I'll check 30p out again, but if I recall, there is a sizable difference in affect.

The difference in effect you percieve is not due to the frame rate. Try this: Set your HF20 to Cine mode (in default 60i or in 30p), find the custom settings in the menu and set brightness, sharpness, and contrast to the "+" setting (there are 3 levels: "-", "+", and the default center scale). Leave saturation (whatever they call it) alone at default midscale.

If the HF20 still retains the basic settings I have in my HF100's, "Cine" mode will mute contrast, color, brightness, and color saturation giving a softer overall look with what looks like more dynamic range. Some, like me, find it too "soft" so the settings I've suggested "snap" it up a bit. I can even intermix footage with Canon DSLRs and Panasonic GH2's.

Your HF20 may just be the perfect camera for what you are setting off to do, but you need to (for now) "let go" of the 24fps "fixation". The camera is lightweight, easy to use (with an LCD hood!), and delivers sharp crisp footage. I shot cavalry charges with my HF100 in 30p and the settings described above, panned with the riders and the effect for what I wanted was perfect. Riders sharp but slightly muted color look with enough contrast to work very well, and backgrounds blurred plenty but just right.

The "cinema" look comes from things other than frame rate, frame rate is purely a mechanical thing, with other factors like lighting, exposure, and camera movement (or stability) working with composition and story content.

Do some very quick testing with the settings I've suggested. Put the clips on the timeline of your editor (title each one so you know what you're looking at) and then render to a final "delivery" format, be it DVD, or viewable file format like MP4 or WMV depending on what your editor offers and whether you use PC or MAC.

I view both on "thumb" drives plugged into a media player hooked up to my bigscreen TV. My NLE offers a render format of 1280x720 60p and the conversion looks NICE on my TV.

If looking for a different camera, the Panasonic GH2 is seeing very wide use in motion picture work with a few independents producing feature length works. Do a search for "Musgo", and look at the trailer and screen grabs in the FOOTAGE section on this site for "The Legend Of Seven Toe Maggie" (last page of posts).

The Panasonic GH2 has a 24p cinema mode that many really like, however it, too, is in a 60i stream. I use it's HBR (high bit rate) mode which is 30p.

Bruce Foreman

[PhenomenalWorld]

Bruce,
Your post is very appreciated. I've been in travel mode a week here in S America and've had little time online. I plan to file a longer report but here, once again, I have one somewhat urgent question:
Doing as you suggest, will I be able to put this footage on the same timeline in FCP as my footage from the hv20 shot in 24 p?
Thanks,
Marc

[Bif]

Unfortunately I don't know. I have no idea how FCP treats different frame rates on the same timeline. Since the HV20 24p is in a 60i stream (with extra frames added - "pulldown") and the HF20 shoots (30p) in a 60i stream that might work.

My suggestion: Set the HF20 for 24p and the HV20 the same. Knowing you've run into a blur problem with camera movement and panning movements, stabilize the camera as much as possible. Make scenic pans "agonizingly" slow, preferably tripod mounted. Limit faster panning to that necessary to follow motion, if you do it smoothly enough the subject will be sharp and the environment blurred.

The trend in motion picture is going to be to get away from 24fps. With some big producers looking at 60p for their next features that tells me something about 24fps.

There are no more film motion picture cameras being made, everything is moving digital. So we're no longer limited to an archaic standard based on mechanical movement of film and the mechanism that does it. Film manufacturing and processing will be maintained until the day comes when volume falls below the point where it is profitable for processing labs to remain active.

Good luck, hope what I've advised above will help you.

Bruce Foreman

[PhenomenalWorld]

Once again thanks for the input, Bruce.

To be clear, I am no longer using the hv40, but rather have lots of footage shot on it that I plan to mix with footage shot on this hf20.

While your advice is appreciated and sane-sounding regarding stabilizing the camera to avoid blur, in reality, given my so-called guerrilla filmmaking approach, there is no way to knock out nearly enough movement, considering how prone to blur the camera is in 24p mode. And there is no room for second takes in my half documentary half-improvised fiction approach. I never know when I need to pan until I need to pan, and sometimes it has to be relatively quick. And with the blur then taking place, it simply ruins the shot - it's unusable. Likewise for even just following a very animated, moving subject matter. Would if I could.

I did experiment with the settings as you suggested. My conclusion is that there in fact is something special to the 24p mode - a grainy, fluid, unsterile "look" that I love, except these same qualities are likely responsible for the motion blur issue. The sharpness, contrast, & brightness differences you suggested don't nearly create this same effect. Wish it weren't so. I'm not much if a techie, so can't argue WHY 24p has a unique feel, but only testify that it does.

So I'm still stuck with the same issue/dilemma, except I'd still really like to know if anyone else has experienced the same problem -after all, maybe there's something wrong with my cam, or just maybe there's something wrong with my eyes....

[Krane]

Once again thanks for the input, Bruce.

To be clear, I am no longer using the hv40, but rather have lots of footage shot on it that unplanned to mix with footage shot on this hf20.

While your advice is appreciated and sane-sounding regarding stabilizing the camera to avoid blur, in reality, given my so-called guerrilla filmmaking approach, there is no way to knock out nearly enough movement, considering how probe to blur the camera is in 24p mode. And there is no room for second takes in my half documentary half-improvised fiction approach. I never know when I need to pan until I need to pan, and sometimes it has to be relatively quick. And with the blur then taking place, it simply ruins the shot - its unusable. Likewise for even just following a very animated, moving subject matter. Would if I could.

I did experiment with the settings as you suggested. My conclusion is that there in fact is something special to the 24p mode, a grainy, fluid, unsterile "look" that I am in love with, except these same qualities are likely responsible for the motion blur issue. The sharpness, contrast, & brightness differences you suggested don't nearly create this same effect. Wish it weren't so. I'm not much if a techie, sony can't argue WHY 24p has a unique feel, but only testify that it does.

So I'm still stuck with the same issue/dilemma, except I'd still really like to know if anyone else has experienced the blue problem -after all, maybe there's something wrong with my cam, or just maybe there's something wrong with my eyes....

A good cameraman anticipate issues and takes precautions to avoid, circumvent, or at least minimize them. You simply can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to make a decision and stick with it. Either go 24p on a tripod or forget about it and go gorilla style. One or the other, but not both.

And again panning and zooming should be out (or no more than once) unless it is your intention to make your audience lose their lunch? There is simply no way around this.

[drapeama]

Shoot 30p. I doubt you'll see much of a difference.

There's not enough difference not to use it. It's the perfect compromise between compliancy and look: Looks day&night better than 60i (as well as closer to 24p) and work with virtually every systems.

[Krane]

There's not enough difference not to use it. It's the perfect compromise between compliancy and look: Looks day&night better than 60i (as well as closer to 24p) and work with virtually every systems.

You'd be surprised what you can do with a little color correction in AE. That's provided you have the tool, the patience, and the talent.

In addition, I've even seen some presets that can get you 90% there with just a few clicks. Like with Magic Bullet Looks. Still, everybody's got to use whatever method they're comfortable with. In any event, 24p and rapid camera motion just don't mix.

[Playing]

How much difference is there in motion blur/strobing between 25p Pal and 30p NTSC?

[drapeama]

How much difference is there in motion blur/strobing between 25p Pal and 30p NTSC?

Probably not enough to make a real difference. Why?

[Playing]

Probably not enough to make a real difference. Why?

I was wondering because I find 25p strobing really bad for i.e. a car driving past, but those in NTSC land seem to complain less about it.

[drapeama]

I was wondering because I find 25p strobing really bad for i.e. a car driving past, but those in NTSC land seem to complain less about it.

It doesn't make a day&night difference, but it helps a bit. But you definitively need more fps to clearly see a difference, like 50i/p & 60i/p.

[Playing]

It doesn't make a day&night difference, but it helps a bit.

Thanks, that's what I expected.

[PhenomenalWorld]

Krane, I think your message has starrtd to compute with me, due to yours and other comments on this thread. Although maybe the "losing lunch" phenomena may have some lucrative and creative business prospects using film to curb obesity and such...will look into that more....

People keep mention zooming on this post but I've not mentioned zooming once. I don't use zoom. I believe it's unethical.

"You'd be surprised what you can do with a little color correction in AE. That's provided you have the tool, the patience, and the talent. "

What AE are you referring to here?

"In addition, I've even seen some presets that can get you 90% there with just a few clicks. Like with Magic Bullet Looks. "

90% where? To a "film look"? Sounds good if so. I'd it expensive?

Drapeama, I will seriously consider using 30p, but now I have to find out of I can have my 24p footage (from the old hv20) on the same timeline as 30p in final cut pro.

...will be out in the amazon jungle the next few weeks. Will check back here upon return to Internet access....

[drapeama]

"You'd be surprised what you can do with a little color correction in AE. That's provided you have the tool, the patience, and the talent. "
What AE are you referring to here?
[...]
Drapeama, I will seriously consider using 30p, but now I have to find out of I can have my 24p footage (from the old hv20) on the same timeline as 30p in final cut pro

1) AE = After Effects from Adobe. There's virtually nothing you can't do with it!
2) Your 24p from the hv20 will be interpreted as 60i (scanned at 24p but stored as 60i) so you would only need to edit using a 60i timeline and it should work for both PF24 and PF30 as these both formats works the same (scanned in a specific framerate but stored in a compliant 60i).

[PhenomenalWorld]

1) AE = After Effects from Adobe. There's virtually nothing you can't do with it!
2) Your 24p from the hv20 will be interpreted as 60i (scanned at 24p but stored as 60i) so you would only need to edit using a 60i timeline and it should work for both PF24 and PF30 as these both formats works the same (scanned in a specific framerate but stored in a compliant 60i).
***************

AE = I see. I'm not acquainted with it.

I'm in the Peruvian Amazon presently and tragically have no way to know what kind of timeline I have been editing on in FCP on my macbook pro back home, even though I've done a LOT of editing on it. To which I'll add this here HF20 footage. It very well may be that I set up the timeline as something other than 60i.
Time will tell.